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Tile Backer-Board Over Old Sub-Floor

The sub-floor in my 1905 house consists of 1x6 at 45 degree angles across the floor. It's not tongue and grove and there are healthy gaps of from 1/8 to 3/8 inches, so every board is individual. Will thin-set then Durock work in this situation or do I need to adhere some 4x8 sheets (plywood or other) , say 1/2 or less (as the ideal is 3/8 Durock, 3/8 tile) to tie the floor together better, then Durock? or will Durock alone work? Regarding the Durock, if I use it alone do I need to tie it in to break on the joists, does that mean wasting one foot off of each sheet, ie., cut each to 3x4, then set?

Last question is: what length roofing nails are best? 

Thanks,

Paul,

Minnesota


I know what you mean about there being gaps between the sub-floor planks. The main floor on our 1907 project house has that type of sub-floor (but not on a 45 degree angle) and there are some gaps big enough to lose a dog through.

Right now we are in the middle of remodeling a first floor bedroom. After we tore up the old fir flooring we laid down a layer of 7/16" Oriented Strand Board (OSB). In hindsight, plywood would have been better for longevity. (I recently read about a study that demonstrated how OSB tends to trap water vapor, sometimes leading to fungal growth and rot.) 

I like adding another layer of sub-floor structure (even 3/8" plywood will add a lot of strength) because many old houses have structural wood that is cracking badly. New plywood will help tie together the old framing members, and it will sandwich the old sub-floor in place. This is also an opportunity to pull out any loose nails and replace them with deck screws, thus eliminating squeaks. And the best approach to installing plywood is to use deck screws (we like Deck Mate screws because they are very strong) instead of nails. Pre-drilling the holes helps to ensure that the screw heads don’t stick up. I see no reason why the plywood edges need to break directly on top of the floor joists. But make sure to mark the location of the floor joists (on the wall) before you cover them. Plywood needs to have fasteners all around the perimeter and also "in the field", or middle section of the panel. These latter fasteners should be located so they hit the floor joists. The proper length for these fasteners is to achieve 1 inch of penetration into the joist.

I view plywood and 1/4" thick cement-board as better than just 1/2" thick cement-board. I have seen many people just nail their Durock or WonderBoard down with galvanized roofing nails. This is supposed to be adequate. But when I read about using thin-set mortar to bond the cement-board to the wood sub-floor, that seemed like a superior method to me. (It was recommended in a book called "Setting Tile" from Taunton Press.) But to work properly, the sub-floor should be coated with a good primer.

I once spoke to a field representative about the "Rock-On" brand of screws mentioned in the article. He explained how the screws have a coating that resists the caustic properties of cement-board, better that simple galvanizing. And the serrated screw heads really do a good job of digging a countersink hole, so the heads hardly ever stick up.

If thickness of the flooring is a major issue and you cannot add plywood, you certainly can lay down cement-board on top of the existing sub-floor. If you do bond it with thin-set, you are bound to drip a lot of mortar through the gaps. This could be a problem if there is a basement below (but a simple drop cloth could prevent any mess). Again, the wood should be cleaned and primed, not much will adhere to old bare wood. Maybe in this scenario your best solution is to simply lay down cement-board with screws, if the floor seems to be intact and not to springy. Most people don’t go to the extreme of bonding the cement-board to the floor. But I am very pleased with the results of the floor in the article. It’s been 9 months and there has been no sign of movement, no cracks, no bounce, no squeaks. Solid as a rock.

When installing cement-board, the edges don’t have to lie over the joists, just make sure to secure the perimeter of the panels using fasteners every 6 to 8 inches. If you do use roofing nails, 1-1/4" long should work fine most places, but where the nails can enter the joists, 1 inch of penetration is best.

The main reason I prefer using screws is that nails tend to back out over time. You could get new floor squeaks from this problem, or a springy spot, though it might take years or decades to show up.

We received a sample of special spiral-shank roofing nails made by Maze. They are intended for nailing cement board. But I don’t know what stores carry them.

 

Bruce W. Maki, Editor.

 

 

 

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Compiled April 5, 2001